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Lang has a pretty impressive list, agreed. I was also thinking back to Virgil's first interview back in MD in 97 and i recall him saying that the first time he moved to the US he studied with Philly Joe when he was 19 and actually Philly recommended him for a gig with, i believe, Bill Evans... not totally sure, but it was someone of that caliber in the straight ahead jazz community. As it turned out Virgil called up to see about the gig and someone gave him misinformation and told him the drummer had been picked, that was before Virgil auditioned. He ended up not auditioning and subsequently moved back Down Under. I believe that little story does tell a little about the versatility of Virgil. When i saw him with Planet X he launched into a blistering solo, which i must admit was a vulgar (in a good way) display of chops but yet didn't do much for me musically. After he proceeded to stop his solo and ask that the lighting guy take the lights out of his eyes he briefly proceeded to play some jazz time while comping some SICK stuff under it. For all the chops that he played in his 7 minute solo those 16 bars, or so, blew me away more than anything else he played for some reason. He really did show a different side of his playing and i was thoroughly impressed in a musical, not chops, sense. He did indeed swing his ass off for those 16 bars... i was sold on it!
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Not to start the old "who's better" thing again, but in my opinion Thomas Lang and Virgil Donati are closest to "touching" Vinnie as it were....this isn't to say they are the "new Vinnie", only that they are the ones whose chops and more importantly, ideas, come even close to the shit Vinnie comes out with. Certain other drummers (not mentioning any names) are still very impressive at their own thing that they do, but it's just not as interesting....just my 2 pence, sorry, cents...
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Hey Beat Hit, first off i did not imply you were ignorant but that we need to hear more of an artist to have a better idea of what they can do. I respect your sincere opinion based on what you know. And I am sure you know quite a bit more about other artists than I do. I have no doubt.
The whole versatile issue is a hard one because there are guys who can play well in some styles but usually are not THE BEST for that genre neccessarily. Vinnie and Dave are not my first choice for straight up Jazz that is for sure but they can play it well. Virgil is a very good funk player but he is not David Garibaldi. Roy haynes or Max Roach or Tony Williams were great Jazzers but other than Tony playing fusion they would not be great in another realm from what I have heard. Even the great Tony W. was not that versatile. Chambers sure is not my first choice for Prog or Pop. this can go on and on. I have heard Vinnie try and pull off harder edge fusion/prog and was not blown away. Dave is a good Latin player but is not a Horacio or Robby Ameen.
Now this is just my opinion but being fairly versatile does not make you a GREAT player. I got into Vinnie and Tony W. and Virgil because of truly
original innovative rhythmic concepts, Great Technique( diverse stickings,precision,fluidity,
speed power etc.) and unique/creative chops(phrasing included) that were insane. Being versatile is secondary to me.
I got to give Terry Bozzio credit he said heck with the idea that you got to play in a band or a certain style to make music on the drums. You do not have to. If you have the mental/emotional and physical ability you can make your instrument sing without others on stage.
These 3 reasons are why I am inspired by Virgil, Mangini, Marco and Lang to a lesser degree. even though I think Lang is more musical diverse and has better feel than Marco and mangini. They are pushing the limits of drumming.
Honestly I can go back 6 or 7 years and I see Lang pulling off now, alot of stuff Virgil was doing back then.
Here are a few albums with diversity that virgil has played on.
1. Alex Pertout(self titled) Latin
2. Linda Cable- Just a dreamer, Jazz
3. Jon Stevens- Are you satisfied, killer pop with an edge.
Joel Hoekstra- Undefined, some great funk/fusion.
Southern Sons- Nothing but the truth, great classic melodic hard rock.
Planet X -Moonbabies, Amazing combination of fusion with a metal edge at times. Definitely a landmark album for innovation. "Simon Phillips" said that recently he tried to sit down and play some of the grooves Virgil layed down on the album and the best he could do was TRY! and he realized that Virgil was even MADDER! than he thought after attempting to play along.
On all of these you will find that Virgil displayed great taste and creativity which=being musical, along with very good feel.
Best regards Digital
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in response to roy's post.....when he said lang and virgil come closest to touching vinnie.....i have yet too see vinnie live so i aint gonna judge.....but vinnie doesnt do all those amazing double bass patterns or any of the extreme independence.....or does he? maybe im wrong? but how can they not "touch" him when they are doing more complex things? i know its not all about speed and technique but correct me if im wrong.
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i agree w/ you on that one Roy...
[img]graemlins/thumbs_up.gif[/img]
other drummers (may it be professional/world renowned), doesnt seem to be interesting to listen to..... they all sound the same when they play (given that they have their own signature chop stuffs, no offense to all the drummers out there, just sharing a thought).
i dont want to sound redundant, but Vinnie really is, or creates much more interesting stuff, in any genre of music.....
i just hope someone would be like him in some ways.... i dont want to listen to drummers doing the same old ratatatat.. no matter how fast they are....
<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ March 24, 2003 04:23 AM: Message edited by: paraddidlefreak ]</font>
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In response to palmerlouie....I'm sure Vinnie has most of the independence and a considerable amount of the foot-technique that those other guys have....whether we get to hear it or not depends on Vinnie, but my point was that rhythmically they come close, i.e. their concepts of rhythm and time etc are a break away from the norm, just like Vinnie's have been for as long as I can remember...
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Fair enough digital,
I was not addressing the who's "best" issue, I was rather speaking of versatility.
I can only judge by what I have been exposed to, so forgive my ignorance. Saw Lang in a clinic in Toronto. Santana's percussionists were performing as well and I was blown away by some dimensions of his playing, but his Latin disappointed me, as they all jammed together at the end. But you know what? That's fine too, meaning, not to handle some styles convincingly. Just something else to work on that's all. He still remains a superb drummer, but "versatile"? Not convinced ... yet! LOL!!!
I look forward to hear Virgil playing other styles. Any album titles welcomed... [img]smile.gif[/img]
Gadd is NOT a specialist that`s for sure. He also comes from a different generation. Sanchez, well he's younger and heard he's pretty scary technically like a cross between Dennis C and Horacio.
PEACE,
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I have seen Vinnie, weckl, chambers, smith etc live and they definitely have real good interdependence but they have never displayed the extreme ideas that guys like Virgil, Minneman, Mangini and Lang have. Were talking "TRUE" four way interdependence swithching patterns from the left side to the right with ease, from the feet to the hands without hesitation. These guys have pushed the whole realm of ostinatos to another level. And no their double bass chops are good but far behind guys like Virgil and Lang and Minneman.
I had the oppurtunity to see Virgil at a clinic in early 99 and he was warming up and doing rudimental patterns with his feet that most of us could not do with out hands. And he was playing really complex groove(locking in)patterns and was switching leading with the right foot and hand to the left foot and hand and did not miss a beat. I had to shake my head in dis-belief.
I have no doubt that Virgil and a few(2 or 3 others) are physically beyond vinnie and Dave etc
but it is their fresh concepts that remind me of vinnie years ago. Not the same playing but just that wacked out imagination with the abilities to pull it off. The guy who got me into Virgil back in 95 said well he(Virgil) is (LIKE) not the same, as a Vinnie on STEROIDS! It was a pretty good description to me.
The reason I dig Virgil is he incorporates what he pulls off in a clinic or solo setting into a song(band setting) and makes great music. A few guys(minneman, Mangini) play their wacked out stuff in a solo setting but I have not heard them make it work in the band setting.
Digital
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Well all the aforementioned drummers share a common thread-a wicked pair of ears.They all hear the drumset in highly individual ways.I almost couldnt even reference Weckl with any of those guys,theres something old skool about his 'ears',like you can almost tell what hes inspired by at the moment,whereas Vinnie,Minnemen,Donati,Lang;leave me with the impression that they have ALOT of different musics running thru their genius heads.Still surprised that noone here is into Jo Jo Mayer.If u are into any of these guys u gotta check Jo Jo.............................beats.
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I wasn't going to comment on this thread, but I saw a term I just HAVE TO comment on: True Independence.
There is NO such thing. True independence means that you could just randomly play 4 with left foot, 7 with right foot, 3 with left hand, 13 with right hand, just like that. NOBODY can do that. Not even the great Terry Bozzio.
I've had the privilege of working one-on-one with Gregg Bissonette, and the example above is Gregg's example. He said that if people saw the days, months, years, it takes to get comfortable with doing one of those crazy "true independence" licks, and then how many more months of practice before actually performing it, people would really think twice. There?s no short cut for practice.
Clearly, in the case of Terry Bozzio, he has decided to concentrate on difficult patterns with independent parts on each limb. For others, maybe the focus is speed. Others might concentrate on feel and groove, and other ?creative? fills and such.
Just my thoughts, or Gregg B?s?
Danny
